Scene #6117: Philosophy of Pacifism

Owner	Pose
Staren	"Hey! Twi!" Staren waves Twilight over to a table, getting up to hug her before taking his seat again. He's ordered a couple of sweet teas and one of those vegetable platters with a dip bowl in the middle surrounded by carrots, celery, brocolli, etc. "It's good to see you again." His smile then fades to an awkward expression and he scratches the back of his head. "Um... to be honest, I guess what I asked you here for may be some heavy subject matter, but... Facing such things and thinking about them earnestly is part of what sets apart the heroes from the simply well-meaning, you know?" "I remember when we talked about the issues of reviving the dead. It was uncomfortable, but you discussed it with me at a time when most people just dismissed it as wrong out of hand. It's one of the things that set you apart from the rest of the Union." "Lately, I've been having talks with Septette. She'll pose a moral problem for me that /sounds/ right but feels wrong -- like why shouldn't a doctor take healthy organs from one healthy person to save five sick people -- and I have to try and figure out why my moral compass doesn't like it. I mean, that was an example, I've already thought about it and if everyone had to worry about doctors cutting them apart, noone would be willing to trust them to heal them in the first place. He scratches the back of his head again, looking away for a moment and then looking back to her. "You inspire me to be a better person, Twi. Just like in a lot of those stories about love, it's true. There's times when I could just give up on trying to save people that are hurting others, or that are in my way stopping me from saving others. And I could say, oh well, it sucks but if I kill them they'll be stopped, and more people will be saved. It's not worth trying to get through to them. But I think of you and I want to do /better/." "And I thought... what exactly am I aspiring to? I have my own arguments for saving as many people as possible. For giving people more chances. But I never actually asked you. Heh, typical me, just projecting my own thoughts onto someone else, right? So... I'd like to hear your thoughts. Maybe some of it's obvious, but maybe some of it is stuff I never thought about before. I guess I really should have talked to you about it earlier."
Twilight Sparkle	Twilight's ears perk when Staren calls out to her, then she smiles and makes her way over. She rears up to hug Staren properly, then takes a seat in a rather human posture. Her smile fades a bit as Staren starts talking about possible heavy subject matter and she listens intently as he explains a bit. She blinks at the apparently question. "You want to know my reasons for giving people as many chances as possible to change and for refusing to kill if I can at all avoid it?" she asks just to make sure she understood the issue at hand. She considers this a few moments. "Well...I guess it comes down to how I was raised. Growing up, killing just...wasn't something that happened. Of course, there are always a few stories that float down through rumor, but my parents did their best to make sure my brother and I only saw the best in ponies. Then, Celestia became my mentor, and she emphasized how every life taken diminished not only the world as a whole but also the spirit of the person who took that life. Not to mention every foe spared is a possible friend in the making, and making friends is the best way to change the world for the better." She considers a few moments more, then hmms. "Then there's the stories passed down through time. Like, Nightmare Moon, Discord, and other such stories where a villain who could destroy Equestria had to be taken down, but they were never killed even though doing so would remove the problem permanently. It is possible that in our world if those creatures were killed then our world would literally lose something vital, but there is also the message that by merely containing them there is the possibility of rehabilitating them. Nightmare Moon turned out to be Luna, and while I can hardly imagine anyone being willing to kill their own sister even to save an entire world I'm sure it was also in the hope that Luna could be saved at some later time. Killing is just...antithesis to pony ways, especially in today's world."
Staren	You want to know my reasons for giving people as many chances as possible... "Well, when you put it that way, I mean... of course I agree with that motivation. But it's more complex than that." He takes one of the baby carrots and dips it, then chews it as she describes her past. He gestures vaguely with it. "Celestia has guards with spears. Your brother's one of them. But digging a little deeper into the issues... You've..." concern flickers over his face. "You've seen things, in the Multiverse. I notice you used the words 'as many chances as possible'. You can't have perfect knowledge, so how do you decide when it's not possible? And, and... Nightmare Moon and Discord are weird cases. We /couldn't/ hurt him. But is turning him to stone, any different? Stone is... it's just a rock. Rocks don't /think/. It's basically the same as a corpse, isn't it? And Nightmare Moon... You blasted her with the elements of harmony that banished her last time. Did you expect them to do anything different? Why? Why /didn't/ they banish her again, anyway?"
Twilight Sparkle	"I can't say for sure whether he can sense anything while in that rock, but I suspect he is basically in jail. Something as powerful as that isn't easy to completely contain." Twilight says, then takes a cauliflower and dips it. "Nightmare Moon...well, I'm not sure what will happen with her. It seemed for a while that she would continually try to undermine us, but she hasn't been active in a while. Even her minions set off to make their own destiny. As for why the Elements didn't banish her...well, when Celestia banished Nightmare Moon it was Nightmare Moon and Luna because she didn't have the power by herself to purify Luna. Maybe the Elements didn't banish Nightmare Moon because she is some kind of basic element, like Discord may be some sort of basic element of our world. But, since I don't know I can't really say." She pauses a moment there. "...what does the guards' spears have to do with this?"
Staren	"'In jail'. What's the point of jail? Is it just to keep people away, or to reform them? If it's just to keep people away, what's the point in keeping them alive and making them suffer if you never intend to let them out? And if it's to reform them... what's being a rock teaching Discord?" Staren takes a breath. "You really don't see anything odd about the royal guards having spears? Pointy sticks aren't a weapon for subduing people. They'd be using, I dunno, magic stun batons or something. Spears are for puncturing living things and making them bleed. And they're the royal guard, not like... guards who patrol the trade routes and keep them clear of monsters, or something. What are the spears for?"
Twilight Sparkle	"Hopefully being a rock is teaching Discord that he can't just do whatever he wants regardless of how it might affect others." Twlight replies. "Not to mention he didn't actually cause any lasting harm. There just wasn't another way to contain such a creature. Even sending him to Tartarus wouldn't have done any good. And the point of jail is to keep dangerous elements separate from the general population while still giving them some semblance of life. They are contained, but can still learn, can still form friendships...what would you have us do? Kill every creature that wronged somepony?" Twilight's ears splay at the emphasis on the spears. "No, there's nothing odd about royal guards having spears. Even if we make it a policy not to kill if we can avoid it, that doesn't mean we aren't prepared to if there is simply no other option. Having a lethal weapon doesn't automatically mean it is the first choice when confronted by an enemy. Many of my spells could easily be used to kill, but I'm not going to do that unless there are lives immediately at stake."
Staren	"Who's Discord going to learn from or make friendships with? But he is an extreme example. I'm sure Equestria's prison system handles mortals better." Staren stands up and starts to pace back and forth beside the table. "I guess the thing I was originally getting at is... How do /you/ know when to draw the line? Whatever you do, of course, will be imperfect. I've messed up lots of times, and have to hope that on the whole I've made things better than if I never tried to help people. I guess for me it's a mix of how bad the harm I think they will do is, vs how hard it is or even if it's possible to capture them again, vs the same for killing them. A slippery thief who steals something and isn't really hurting people -- although that depends on what's being stolen and why -- may be difficult to capture but also not a large threat. Conversely, even a psychopath hell-bent on commiting serial murder but with no real combat or escape power might be easily captured despite the very low probability of changing them for the better." He stops and turns to Twilight again. "But this is the Multiverse. There are beings out there with completely incompatible methods of thought. The idea of redeeming someone requires that they have a psychological framework that can understand stuff like... that the bad things they do hurt people, and that hurting people matters. There are killer robots not programmed to take friendship into account when carrying out their mission. Fairies who only care whether something makes a good story. Aliens who just care about something else. Is there any reason I should spare them? They'll go out and hurt more people, and if I could stop them..."
Twilight Sparkle	All these examples are things Twilight has yet to actually meet and hasn't really had to consider if she confronted them. But, the brodkil she encountered however briefly were aparently one of these examples, and even if she didn't see that aspect it was very clearly true given the attitudes of everyone else. "...I don't know if there is a logical reason to spare such creatures, but unless they are directly and immediately threatening lives then it is wrong to kill them. Just because none have changed yet doesn't mean none will. And until they have actually done something wrong there's nothing to punish. If we killed every creature that could harm us we would be left with no creatures at all. And, if we don't hold ourselves to a higher standard then we lose ourselves and risk becoming the very dark creatures that we are fighting against."
Staren	Staren nods, and sits back down. "Certainly, we don't want to kill everything that /can/ harm us, just those that are most likely to cause harm and which aren't reasonably redeemable. The hungriest monster, anathema to all else that lives but that never leaves its territory can just, y'know, be left alone." He tilts his head. "'Nothing to punish'. An interesting choice of words. You view killing as punishment? Punishment requires some form of suffering. If they're dead, they can't be suffering or /not/ suffering, they just... are gone. Or moved on to some other new existence. I've always seen killing as being an -- albeit drastic -- protective measure for those who are still alive, that the dead can't hurt anymore."
Twilight Sparkle	Twilight seems uncertain here. "Well...certainly killing removes the threat, but...I think too many resort to killing too quickly simply because it is so easy a solution. Killing is just as you said. Someone or something's life ends. They can no longer contribute to anything, good or bad, except perhaps by the natural process of decay. The problem is, killing is in nearly all cases a permanent state. If someone is killed, all potential they had to be redeemed, reformed, and contribute in a positive way to society is gone."
Staren	Staren nods. "Right. I was just... when you said 'there's nothing to punish' I thought that was... hmm... I suppose not odd, but not how I was thinking of it." He tilts his head the other way. "I guess it's wrong to say I 'always' thought of it as such. Obviously there was a time when I /didn't/ think about it. Killing was something bad guys did to innocent people and good guys did sometimes to bad guys. I never really /thought/ about it until, hmm... I dunno, over the past several years I started thinking more and more about morality." He takes a deep breath, and a sip of his iced tea. "I'm not sure truly so many are eager to kill, but they're certainly out there, even among the 'heroes' or those working to help people, it's true." He's quiet a moment, but looking like he's thinking. "...Why do people matter? Maybe that's what it comes down to. What is it that's lost when someone's killed? You mention redemption and contributing in a positive way to society... But what if something was never going to do that?" He holds up a hand. "I'm not saying that non-people are worthless. Pets, for instance, obviously bring something to the lives of their owners, even if their minds are too simple for moral choices. And even dangerous creatures may have things to teach us scientifically, about how they function, why they're so dangerous, and by extension, about other life. If they are carefully observed rather than killed, they can contribute to society even without ever deciding or wanting to."
Twilight Sparkle	Twilight's ears splay and she sighs softly. "I think the main problem is that in Equestria we have that option. Nearly all creatures can be reasoned with, and ponies can generally defend themselves effectively even without training thanks to our innate strength. But...from what I have seen all other worlds have plenty of creatures that have no higher consciousness, or exist only to destroy, or even...take pleasure in destroying and killing. Like those creatures we encountered in your world. From what the others said, they may continue to kill even if we find who has directed them toward that town and stop them." She is silent a few moments, then looks sadly at Staren. "...I don't want to believe there is no option but to kill them, but...if they give us no other choice..." She shakes her head. "I've never had to kill a creature that had any sort of intelligence. I'm not sure how I would handle it if I did."
Staren	Staren looks sad too at her expression. Then, surprised. "You encountered what in my world? I..." He closes his eyes for a moment, then stands up and paces again. "Look, if you encountered supernatural evil... I mean, look at August's world. Or others. Sometimes the idea of hatered, or violence, or fear, or... just /malevolence/, is given form.. How can hatred learn to understand friendship? Sometimes, these things get more... people-ized. But there's usually some sign that they are. If people call themselves demons and they look kinda like monsters but they care about their friends and families, or something, y'know, maybe they're one of the more people-y kinds, who can be taught to be good, may even want to be. But for a creature made of hatred or malevolence and nothing else..." He stops pacing and turns to Twilight. "It sounds like you're conflating intelligence with being a person. Have you had to destroy robots? I could program a group of machines to hurt people. They'd show signs of intelligence, perhaps. Speak, either prerecorded messages or synthesized words. They could /make plans/, reasoning about the state of the world and how to better accomplish hurting people. But intelligence isn't... isn't kindness, or love, or hope, or friendship, or loyalty, honesty, charity, or laughter. It isn't even mercy or justice. It's just being better at gathering information about the world and getting what it wants. Feeling bad about destroying those robots would be like feeling bad for smashing a rock. The rock was never going to make friends. No matter how much you talked to it. No matter how many examples of friendship you showed to it. It's a rock." He shakes his head. "The potential just isn't there."
Twilight Sparkle	"Something called a brodkil, I think?" Twilight replies to that first part. "Garnet Town requested assistance, and those responding encountered some sort of...rather strange humanoids that turned invisible when injured or disarmed. They said they had been hired to attack people, and that they enjoyed attacking people." She shakes her head at Staren's following argument. "Perhaps, but I mean things that can feel emotions. I might still feel bad about those robots, though." She scratches her head a bit. "...it is hard to explain. I have destroyed robots that showed no sign of higher intelligence or emotion, but a robot that spoke with feeling would be quite different. It is like a Timberwolf. They might have some kind of intelligence and even emotions, but they have made it clear that they are unable or unwilling to be reasoned with. Nopony would hesitate to destroy one of those." Twilight sighs. "The exact qualities are hard to define. Whether or not they are a person or at least pet level of consciousness is just something I feel when I encounter something."
Staren	Staren ohs. "Brodkil, huh... People call them demons, but what does that really mean? They set off certain kinds of psychic senses, but I'm not really sure how those work. Still, I've never heard of one doing anything but causing misery. ...Tch. Emotions." Staren starts pacing again. "Why do emotions matter? It's not feeling any emotions when it's dead." he actually sounds surprised to hear Twilight admit that there /is/ something ponies would just kill. "So why is it okay to kill timberwolves but you hesitated with the brodkil? It's not like timberwolves appear to be completely mindless. They can perceive and flee from danger, can't they? Is it because the brodkil are flesh and the timberwolves... wood? Or is it just because... you'd never seen them before, so for all you knew, they were just a kind of red-skinned humanoid person and the ones you met were jerks? I suppose that's only reasonable caution. You couldn't have known about them. I sure haven't read up on every dangerous creature that infests my /own/ world." Staren looks at her with concern. "I'm glad you're alright, by the way." He stops, takes a deep breath, and thinks for a moment. "Something you feel." He turns towards her. "That's what my conversations with Septette... what /all/ of my moral examinations have come down to. What's right and wrong isn't written in the universe, not in the constants of physics or anything like that. It's in here." He points at his head. "I've worked to understand it, but it's a black box that can only tell me if something feels right or wrong. Sometimes it's not sure. Sometimes it changes its mind when I understand a situation better. But at the end of the day, I have those conversations with Septette and something /feels/ wrong before I figure out why. Examine those feelings. Think about the situation... in my experience, that means that either there's something we're missing, some reason not to kill even such beings -- or, if there's not, that feeling will pass when you think about the situation differently." Staren sits down. "Usually I try to come up with the reasons, not Septette, but... Perhaps you fear that if you became more willing to resort to killing such things, you could be tricked? Someone could make a person look like a brodkil, and you'd gun an innocent down without knowing? But then, the same could be said for a timberwolf..."
Twilight Sparkle	Twilight seems taken aback by Staren's questioning of the importance of emotions and actually looks a bit upset. "Why do emotions matter? Because that's one of the best indicators that something is a person! Another is a creature's ability to question it's own existence or purpose. Creatures or constructs that have those qualities are as far as I am concerned as much a person as you or I! And we have no right to cut their lives short, just as they have no right to cut ours short. A Timberwolf for instance doesn't care why it exists as far as anyone has been able to tell, and doesn't give any consideration to the value of those it hurts." She takes a deep breath there then lets it out slowly. "As for my fears, it is not so much that I will be tricked. It is that if I kill one thing...then it may be easier to kill the next thing, and the next thing, until eventually killing gives me no pause at all, whether the thing I killed was a simple machine or a Timberwolf...or a pony. -That- is my fear, because I know that sort of thing happens on virtually every other world. The concept of valuing life is lost or lessened, and soon there are deadly wars and killings in the street." Her ears splay and she looks down. "That is how a person becomes a true monster."
Staren	"Beasts have emotions too, don't they? Although I suppose the capacity for emotions is a sign that an /intelligent/ being may be able to understand the emotions of others. Questioning the purpose of your existence is another good test. There's always the possibility for fakes -- a robot playing a recording, for instance -- but it's pretty unlikely. As far as anyone's seen, the Brodkil don't question an existence of mindless violence and don't care about the value of those they hurt." Staren takes a deep breath and stares into his tea for a moment. "...I'm not sure what to tell you. It's a violent multiverse out there. It may not be by your own hoof, but by helping people who kill, you've already led to many deaths. You've also saved many lives." Staren sighs. "Wars happen for many reasons, and people go to war for as many." There's that look in his eyes that indicates he's looking something up on the internet for a moment. "There was a study on soldiers during World War II, one of humanity's most famous and terrible conflicts. The opposing side in that war commited genocide, slaughtering millions of innocents. As close to having an unquestionably evil side as you can get in a war between humans. And /still/, it was found that soldiers were wasting ammo and not trying to hit their target. They'd gone to war and they /still/ didn't want to kill eachother. Didn't want to kill those who were supporting such terrible atrocities. /being shot at/, in fear for them and their comrades' lives, and they still didn't want to kill." Staren shakes his head. "The value of life isn't lost that way. It's lost when you stop seeing people as people. When you fall into a mindset of us vs them instead of wishing there was a way for everyone to win." He focuses his gaze on her eyes. "All the reasons you've given. Do you think they'd stop mattering if you killed?" He shakes his head. "I know that's not true. You'd see me as a monster if so. And if there were no way to continue caring after so much killing, I'd be an irredeemable one at that."
Twilight Sparkle	"Animals do, yes. But again, I haven't met...well...any animals from outside of Equestria. Except pokemon, and I am quite certain they too are unusual animals in the Multiverse." Twilight says. And then...she is visibly shocked by Staren's assertion that by helping people that have killed she in turn could be a killer. "But...I..I didn't help them kill anything!" she insists a bit frantically. She is breathing quickly all of a sudden, like when she is failing an assignment or in danger of disappointing Celestia. She may have heard the rest of what Staren said, but her mind is reeling with the possibility that she has indirectly aided in the deaths of others. Sure, she can argue with herself that those creatures killed may have been bad creatures, but she doesn't know. And she has no idea how many, or how many families may now be suffering thanks in some small part to her. And it would be pretty easy to tell what thoughts were going through her head. Her eyes get a bit watery, but she does her best to keep it at bay. "R-right...because...those people, they knew that taking a life even in such a situation...it changes people. It's something you can't get back. N-no, the reasons wouldn't stop mattering if I killed someone, but...maybe they would? I don't want to find out." Her voice is solemn and kind of quiet now. "And...then there are all the other worries. What would my family think? What about my friends? Queens Celestia and Luna? But most of all...what will I think of myself?"
Staren	Staren... didn't expect her to take that quite so hard. That was supposed to be reductio ad absurdum, not reductio ad lacrimae! He rallies, standing again with his hands against the table. "Your family? Your brother's in the military, for Morg's sake! A military /that serves under Celestia and Luna/!" He rushes around the table to hug her, and says more softly, "I don't see how they could not still love you." "...They weren't afraid of turning into monsters. They just didn't want to have any blood on their hands at all, even if it was to save the world." Staren sighs. "Perhaps you should talk to Luna and Celestia. You've only seen what Equestria is now. Discord's shenanigans 'only' messed up a bunch of lives and destroyed crops this time. Equestria was able to provide spare food because it's so prosperous. But what about a thousand years ago? Discord probably starved a lot of ponies, and ruined who knows how many lives. Celestia and Luna, they've seen things. The survivors of the windigoes can't have had an easy time domesticating the wilderness. Ponies control it all now, but what about back then? They're protectors. Sometimes protectors have to do hard things. If they really never had to go so far... then are they truly prepared to protect Equestria in the Multiverse? And if not them, who?" Staren sighs, and tries to stroke her mane soothingly.
Twilight Sparkle	Twilight practically clings to Staren when he comes around the table. "B-but...Shining Armor...we don't have wars or deadly battles like that. We haven't for hundreds of years. If Shining Armor has killed someone I'm not sure I'd believe it!" she says. But, that gets her thinking. Staren keeps going, and it makes sense in a way. Many creatures on Equestria are not nearly so peaceful as ponies, and even ponies were not so peaceful once upon a time. Twilight can't imagine ponies killing things today without very good reasons. She continues to cling to Staren as her mind works over all that he's said. But, perhaps most important of all, she is forced to consider her brother. He's in the military. If things went bad he'd be one of the first to have to kill something. Celestia and Luna, one her most idolized teacher and the other a former monster who has once again become a beloved ruler to her people. With the exception of Luna, who may have cost some lives at some point in the pursuit of nefarious ends, Twilight doesn't think she'd think any less of either Shining Armor or Celestia if the defense of Equestria forced them to kill creatures who were threatening Equestria with death and destruction. She is still a bit shaken, but she calms down a bit. She wipes at her eyes with a foreleg, then wraps it around Staren again. "...it seems rather unfair to place any blame for the actions of others on someone who helped them in the past without knowing what those people would do in the future."
Staren	"Hundreds of years? Really? And what about griffons and dragons and stuff? If they're kept in check by fear of Celestia, what's the reason for that fear?" Staren hugs again while she dries her tears. "I'm not blaming you, although you knew full well what I did. I certainly don't think it was wrong to help me or others. It's more that... ugh, this conversation's gone all wrong. Your motives for helping me came because you care about people, right? That's... you care so much, that's /why/ the idea of ending a life bothers you so much. And you know what I wish? I wish I was clever and resourceful enough that I could /find/ the way to solve the problems I run into without bloodshed. To find the best future where everyone gets to live fuller lives. As long as the bad guys aren't hurting people any more, they don't have to be dead! But it's an ideal I just haven't found a way to live up to. Maybe it's impossible. Or maybe with enough understanding of the Multiverse I'd have the power to do it." "...Real life isn't the kind of test where you can get 100, Twilight. You're not sure what grade you get, really, you kind of have to assign it yourself based on whether things got better or worse because of you. And no matter what you scored, the next test will come, and the next, until you die. Ugh, that sounded depressing out loud, let me think of another metaphor..."
Twilight Sparkle	Twilight huffs softly. "I think we once again come to a fundamental difference between my world and others. Pretty much every creature on our planet is reasonable, and even if they aren't we have lots of ways to subdue creatures without killing them, not least of which is barrier magic. Some dragons live in Equestria right now, peacefully sleeping in caves or exploring volcanoes or even living in my house. Griffons are allies of Equestria even when they aren't part of Equestria. And Celestia and Luna have been ruling Equestria for at least 1000 years. I guess it's possible there have been skirmishes without the rest of Equestria hearing about it, but as far as I know there have been no real battles much less any that ended in deaths between ponies and any other creatures for as long as Celestia has been our queen." Staren's words about life not being a test where you can get 100 does sound a bit grim, but it is also true. Twilight sighs heavily and closes her eyes to think about all of this. Does it change how she thinks about things? She doesn't think so. But, it does give her some perspective, and she'll be processing it for a while.
Staren	Staren pats her back and then moves back to his seat. "I guess it really is that different. The one thing I don't get is, if it's so different, how do you have such great understanding of people?"
Twilight Sparkle	Twilight considers that for a few moments, then shrugs lightly and smiles a bit. "...I didn't always. I've been studying friendship for a while now, and that is in large part a study of people. For all I know I don't understand anyone outside of Equestria other than you and Mortimer and maybe a few others. Actually, it's obvious I don't given what happened with Gilgamesh and Priscilla, as well as many other interactions with non-Equestrians."
Staren	Staren looks down at his tea again. "Hmm. You've made sense of others I interacted with, though." "...Are you alright?" he looks back at her. "Sorry, I thought some philosophical self-examination might help, but, I may have messed it up..."
Twilight Sparkle	Twilight seems somewhat reassured by the fact that she's helped Staren with non-ponies. "It seems to be a fact of this Multiverse that most people in it are fairly similar. Motivations, beliefs, ethics, values...nearly all seem to be shared across an endless variety of people. I suppose I am just lucky that my studies apply on such a large scale." she says, then smiles a bit and shakes her head at that last part. "You didn't mess up. If I was being ignorant or delusional then it is better that a friend points it out to me. I don't know if I am alright yet, but I should be after I give all of this a long thought." She finally takes another veggie and dips it before popping it into her mouth, all using her magic of course. "...sorry for breaking down like that before...I was at least being ignorant in that aspect. But, that doesn't mean I'm going to stop helping people."
Staren	Staren looks down at the table again when she mentions breaking down, then smiles at her assertion to continue helping. "That's the spirit!" He takes a sip of the tea.